Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Enough of this darkrai bullshit what niche mons are any of you using to check threats in the metagame I personally love using chesnaught to check ogerpon-w and cornerstone on top of checking gambit.
Grassy Seed Calm Mind Sinistcha is painful. Invalidates Zamen, can set up on Kingambit, and really needs just one CM to get going. Matcha Gotcha is another grass move that would be banned if it had wider distribution, the other being Strength Sap which it also gets.

It makes me realize how useful a bulky ghost is in this tier. I never used Skeledirge.
 
Grassy Seed Calm Mind Sinistcha is painful. Invalidates Zamen, can set up on Kingambit, and really needs just one CM to get going. Matcha Gotcha is another grass move that would be banned if it had wider distribution, the other being Strength Sap which it also gets.

It makes me realize how useful a bulky ghost is in this tier. I never used Skeledirge.
Sinistcha is pretty underrated imo. It just sits on so much of the tier thanks to surprisingly good typing and great recovery with Strength Sap and Matcha Gotcha. Definitely a threat that’ll catch most players off guard.

Funnily enough, Skeledirge drinks Cha for high tea. Honestly we have plenty of bulky ghosts that can set up sweep to fill the role of Gholdengo. Honestly think the tier would be fine without it.
 
every month someone tries to reinvent morkal
jokes aside i've tried building teams around Noivern. In theory, boomburst/flamethrower/hurricane/draco gives you strong coverage and decent ohko potential for nearly the entire metagame with a solid speed tier, but it often ends up becoming bargain bin pult in practice, maybe there's a niche for it somewhere though.
Noivern is one of my favorite mons and I have thought about it and how to distinguish it from Pult. It's difficult since ALL of Pult's stats are either the same or higher than Noivern's, it has Infiltrator as well and its offensive STABs are better. I mean, you could rely on Boomburst but Dragapult has a one-time STAB nuke every time it switches in with Draco Meteor, so even then Pult kinda outdoes it.
If you're dead set on making it work, then it would fill a similar role as Dragapult's, and if you really want to make it different Dragapult does not have access to Roost and Taunt, and you could theoretically cook up some stallbreaker or pivot set with it I guess, but I never actually tried it.
 
Enough of this darkrai bullshit what niche mons are any of you using to check threats in the metagame I personally love using chesnaught to check ogerpon-w and cornerstone on top of checking gambit.
Scarf Kleavor with Stone Axe/X-Scissor/Nightslash/Defog (or Dual Wingbeat for the rare fighting type). Not only does it let me hit Zapdos, fairly easily, scarf lets you effectively outspeed any non-scarf Dragonpults to OHK or X-Scissor to snipe Ogerpon and Samurott. It's felt surprisingly good, and a lot of them never expect you to stay in so removing any Ogerpons or Zapdos's is always a great thing. Not to mention, a lot of Ghold's get cocky and sit on it until they eat a Nightslash which sometimes and removes them!
 
every month someone tries to reinvent morkal
jokes aside i've tried building teams around Noivern. In theory, boomburst/flamethrower/hurricane/draco gives you strong coverage and decent ohko potential for nearly the entire metagame with a solid speed tier, but it often ends up becoming bargain bin pult in practice, maybe there's a niche for it somewhere though.
me with my boy dragalge and custap berry sturdy-endeavor-reversal lairon

people that only joined this gen don’t realize how good they have it, old councils used to only ban the most heinous offenders from OU, we’ve been treated pretty well this gen lol
still shivers me when i started playing this format and ppl are used to just excadrills my ass and sending those espeons to set dual screens while bounces back my status moves, and not to remember that weather was an uber stuff only
 
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Why y'all tryna unban stuff when the SV OU tier is already problematic? I don't get it.
We want to unban things when the dlc2 will be here (december 14th), to see if some uber mons are still broken even with the new and returning mons. Off course, most of them shouldn't be released

And finally, I think Sneasler shouldn't be allowed. I made a mistake about it.
However, I'm still sure Ogerpon-Fire should never be allowed.

Well, we'll see when the dlc will be here anyway
That's just theory, we can't be sure about everything we said here.
Off course, every person has a different point of view, because we don't play the game the same way, and that's right
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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Why y'all tryna unban stuff when the SV OU tier is already problematic? I don't get it.
Because some of those pokemon might not be as powerful as it is now and may help the meta.

For Example, Gliscor and Roaring Moon. Currently the meta is heavily dominated by zapdos and moltres running almost freely getting flame body and static off. Gliscor help neuter that while not making it completely unviable, Roaring Moon helped againts the dominance of ogerpon and grassy terrain while also being able to break gliscor if need be.

These 2 pokemon has a lot of positives that it bring to the meta and it outweighs the negatives, currently these pokemon are not that broken as is and can definetly be argued to be fine in the current meta, once the DLC drop they definetly will become balanced due to the addition of new pokemon and moves.
 
An interesting point in that discussion is that instead of looking for Ubers to drop y'all should look for low-tier mons that could be viable since 95% of the mons are allowed in OU
Ok so here is tera-fire Hawlucha!!!

I played it after sneasler ban, and it was cool, and he can sweep if you put it on the wright time, thanks to U-Turn Rillaboom. However, it can be hard to setup against lost of mons, and without attk boost, it doesn't hit hard at all. Dondozo completely wall it off course.
Opposing Tusk and Rilla are free setup but... that's all. Ogerpon does too much damage and can crit (but the opponent may switch out), alo can burn (if you don't tera), toxa can haze, ting lu can whirlwind, zam can tera and id, special mons can ko, samurott-h can crit with water move.
So... it can be hard to use it but with tera fire it can work, and setup against ceruledge, cinderace, heatran and enamorus (if you tera at the turn they do magma/moonblast).
However, weak to aqua jet and revenge killed by sucker punch gambit after tera or cc drop.
Off course, we use tera fire to ko gholdengo, and tera blast is not a contact move so you're not statik by zapdos if you use it.
You can also use tera elek to be immune to t-wave and beat zapdos more easily (except if the opponent has the strange idea to heat wave burn, or if hurricane confuses) and do more damage to pex.
Ghost is an option to beat ghold and be immune to espeed (which may ko you after some cc drop without tera ghost) and body press, but it makes you weak to wisp, t-wave and sucker punch.
Dark is an idea too, so you still resist sucker punch after tera and you beat ghold after sd, but you keep fairy weakness.

Here is the set and a game I won with it:

https://pokepast.es/4aa783feafb581da (outspeeds dragapult scarf, perhaps you can find better Evs ideas)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1994767083
 
  • Stop trying to convince me that a base 135 Sp. Atk, base 125 Speed Dark-Type sweeper with access to Hypnosis, multiple ways of boosting (namely Nasty Plot or Choice items), and the ability to pick and choose its checks and counters is going to be balanced in DLC2, especially prior to any changes to Terastalizing. Because it won't be. Fast yet inaccurate sleep is a triple whammy of uncompetitiveness, and the ability to partner with other potentially dangerous threats would only make the Hyper Offense Vs. Big Stall dynamic even more polarizing.
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it already exists man, Iron Valiant already exists. The difference between 130 and 135 in terms of stats is only 10 points. Not to mention that if you do miss a hypnosis your opponent can fairly easily chunk you for 90%, either of them.

Screenshot 2023-11-29 7.34.58 AM.png


And we also already have something with arguably more speed and spA with every coverage option it needs, and you're telling me that the frail-as-shit pokemon with only Dark stab and no ability is gonna explode the tier?
(granted darkrai doesn't have a SR weakness and can use pretty much any item it wants so they aren't the exact same)
 
Because some of those pokemon might not be as powerful as it is now and may help the meta.

For Example, Gliscor and Roaring Moon. Currently the meta is heavily dominated by zapdos and moltres running almost freely getting flame body and static off. Gliscor help neuter that while not making it completely unviable, Roaring Moon helped againts the dominance of ogerpon and grassy terrain while also being able to break gliscor if need be.

These 2 pokemon has a lot of positives that it bring to the meta and it outweighs the negatives, currently these pokemon are not that broken as is and can definetly be argued to be fine in the current meta, once the DLC drop they definetly will become balanced due to the addition of new pokemon and moves.
I get where you're coming from, but I'm not exactly convinced that the meta would be "helped" with these readditions. I wouldn't say Gliscor just neuters the likes of Zap and Tres, but more so invalidates there existence. Gliscor just does what both birds do, but better. That of course being Bulky pivots that spread status. Not only that, but why would I use either Bird in a Gliscor dominated meta when Gliscor can always just toxic me, knock off my HDB, and be immune to my status effects.

As for Roaring Moon, I'll never quite understand why the only way we can answer a problem is with a bigger problem. There is even less defensive measures to Roaring Moon than there are Wellspring imo. At least with Wellspring you can use faster offensive threats to pressure it. Nothing is faster than a boosted Roaring Moon. There are plenty of potential checks/counters for Wellspring within the lower tiers that are held make by a certain Coin Enthusiast while not much if any exist for Roaring Moon. If we really want to deal with Pokemon like Wellspring I'd argue you should try looking at making OU's defensive answers better than adding to its already vast array of offensive threats. In other words ban Gholdengo not unban Roaring Moon imo.
 
it already exists man, Iron Valiant already exists. The difference between 130 and 135 in terms of stats is only 10 points. Not to mention that if you do miss a hypnosis your opponent can fairly easily chunk you for 90%, either of them.
Don’t forget that Iron Valiant has stronger STAB options, so Iron Valiant is way stronger.
Not to mention that Hypnosis is such a wasted slot on Darkrai. You are already scrambling to fit in coverage to beat X, Y, and Z, now you want to waste that coverage option on Hypnosis?
 
Don’t forget that Iron Valiant has stronger STAB options, so Iron Valiant is way stronger.
Not to mention that Hypnosis is such a wasted slot on Darkrai. You are already scrambling to fit in coverage to beat X, Y, and Z, now you want to waste that coverage option on Hypnosis?
It's not necessarily a waste. As long as you have the necessary coverage to hit most things, I could see it potentially be slotted in sometimes. Bad dreams lets you chip while you could boost up, and lower the damage threshold needed to secure kos. That's potentially a 4th off anything that wanted to switch in, and ends up catching it. Not to mention, you're essentially removing a mon out of the game for a few turns.
 
every month someone tries to reinvent morkal
jokes aside i've tried building teams around Noivern. In theory, boomburst/flamethrower/hurricane/draco gives you strong coverage and decent ohko potential for nearly the entire metagame with a solid speed tier, but it often ends up becoming bargain bin pult in practice, maybe there's a niche for it somewhere though.
I built a team around Tera Normal Choice Specs Noivern with Boomburst at the very start of the generation and uh, yeah Pult completely outclasses it in every way. The only niche I found for it was a support set utilizing Defog and Tera Fire Flamethrower to beat Ghold while also having a semi-decent Draco Meteor and Hurricane and pivoting. It's not great, but it's something.

Don’t forget that Iron Valiant has stronger STAB options, so Iron Valiant is way stronger.
Not to mention that Hypnosis is such a wasted slot on Darkrai. You are already scrambling to fit in coverage to beat X, Y, and Z, now you want to waste that coverage option on Hypnosis?
I wish people would stop saying that. Darkrai does not need all 4 moveslots for coverage to be good. It hits most things with just Focus Blast/Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb (or Ice Beam if you're feeling quirky). I don't think that hypnosis will be good, since nasty plot is so much better than it in the last slot, but the point is that it is an option that can invalidate some of its checks (bulky neutral targets like the Haxbirbs) with Bad Dreams.
 
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It's not necessarily a waste. As long as you have the necessary coverage to hit most things, I could see it potentially be slotted in sometimes. Bad dreams lets you chip while you could boost up, and lower the damage threshold needed to secure kos. That's potentially a 4th off anything that wanted to switch in, and ends up catching it. Not to mention, you're essentially removing a mon out of the game for a few turns.
That's the thing, Darkrai doesn't have that with just 2 moves, and hits like a wet noodle without nasty plot or a choice item. Life orb + hypnosis + 3 attacks does not sound real. Like what 2 moves are you running that "have the necessary coverage to hit most things?" Dark Pulse + Tera Blast Fairy? You have to burn Tera and still are walled by Fairy types. "You can use the sleep chip to get KOs" do you want to rely on a 60% move to do that?

Bad Dreams chip will in fact not "add up" because of the option to switch + sleep clause. Darkrai basically has no ability, and why would you run Hypnosis/Bad Dreams over something with Spore if you're really pressed about wanting Sleep as an option
 
That's the thing, Darkrai doesn't have that with just 2 moves, and hits like a wet noodle without nasty plot or a choice item. Life orb + hypnosis + 3 attacks does not sound real. Like what 2 moves are you running that "have the necessary coverage to hit most things?" Dark Pulse + Tera Blast Fairy? You have to burn Tera and still are walled by Fairy types. "You can use the sleep chip to get KOs" do you want to rely on a 60% move to do that?

Bad Dreams chip will in fact not "add up" because of the option to switch + sleep clause. Darkrai basically has no ability, and why would you run Hypnosis/Bad Dreams over something with Spore if you're really pressed about wanting Sleep as an option
With the right coverage it can do work

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 286-338 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
however, on the flip side, without it...
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It really needs set up or something to be able to take full HP KO's
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
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it already exists man, Iron Valiant already exists. The difference between 130 and 135 in terms of stats is only 10 points. Not to mention that if you do miss a hypnosis your opponent can fairly easily chunk you for 90%, either of them.

View attachment 574970

And we also already have something with arguably more speed and spA with every coverage option it needs, and you're telling me that the frail-as-shit pokemon with only Dark stab and no ability is gonna explode the tier?
(granted darkrai doesn't have a SR weakness and can use pretty much any item it wants so they aren't the exact same)
Val's coverage is limited, and it has a few checks that it struggles to break, like Clef
Moth is slower, and crucially doesn't have a reliable way of boosting + has no way to break Dirge, and has a very hard time breaking Ting Lu

Darkrai has neither of these problems: with Nasty Plot, there is no reliable wall. With its pick of coverage like sludge bomb to hit fairies, focus blast to nail dark types like Gambit and Ting Lu, psyshock to catch blissey and blow up spdef pex, or even hypnosis if you want to go fishing, Darkrai is a deadly offensive threat that the tier cannot handle. Especially with the prominence of webs, which guts any attempts of outspeeding it with booster mons.

Furthermore, if you expect the NP set, it can reveal scarf, which not only outspeeds every mon in the tier, it also can pack trick to cripple any defensive mon which tries to switch in.
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rater
View attachment 575013
View attachment 575014

but you are valid in pointing out that it's powerful, darkrai, if dropped would probably become special attacker numero uno; although it's reliance on focus miss might hold it back
*Val can't pack the coverage to break all its walls, I probably should've clarified that better yeah. Like Phys val can't break clef without teraing/getting a lucky encore,
 
*Val can't pack the coverage to break all its walls, I probably should've clarified that better yeah. Like Phys val can't break clef without teraing/getting a lucky encore,
Was about to post a calc to prove you WRONG (because that's what I do when I'm not trying to nest 2 functions in a larger function in python for a performance assessment) but then remembered you said "without tera" and it RUINED me. Anyway I'm posting the calc anyway because :3 +2 252 Atk Tera Steel Iron Valiant Spirit Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Give Iron Valiant Meteor Mash, I am normal and can be trusted
 
With the right coverage it can do work

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 286-338 (89 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
however, on the flip side, without it...
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 181-214 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It really needs set up or something to be able to take full HP KO's
I believe that, with tera blast ground to KO more easily Pex, Heatran (and other steel type mon except the flying ones) darkrai can be really hard to stop, especially after setup.
Nasty Plot + Dark Pulse + Sludge Bomb + Tera Blast (ground or fire or elec) or Focus Blast or ice beam

It would be very hard to beat while playing a balance or defensive team.

We also can imagine a tera dark to do more damage with dark pulse or a tera poison to hit harder with sludge Bomb while resisting to fairy and fighting.

Specs would also be hard to handle defensively.

Scarf could be really good to beat dragapult, enamorus scarf, iv booster energy, tusk booster energy speed. Also, Darkrai has trick.

It also has psyshock, I am not sure it would be strong, but it can beat blissey. There is also psychic but I don't think it would be used. There is also Thunder for rain teams but it's a very specific one.

Darkrai could also be really strong in web teams or screen teams.

I still think it's too strong for ou, but anyway, we will see what the council will have decided in two weeks.
 
That's the thing, Darkrai doesn't have that with just 2 moves, and hits like a wet noodle without nasty plot or a choice item. Life orb + hypnosis + 3 attacks does not sound real. Like what 2 moves are you running that "have the necessary coverage to hit most things?" Dark Pulse + Tera Blast Fairy? You have to burn Tera and still are walled by Fairy types. "You can use the sleep chip to get KOs" do you want to rely on a 60% move to do that?

Bad Dreams chip will in fact not "add up" because of the option to switch + sleep clause. Darkrai basically has no ability, and why would you run Hypnosis/Bad Dreams over something with Spore if you're really pressed about wanting Sleep as an option
Bad Dreams takes 1/8th out of any mon that's asleep, and doesn't care about resistance. By your logic, the repeated damage from switching into a spike must mean nothing. And are you gonna just keep that mon asleep the whole game? Your options are A. Let darkrai get that nasty plot, but have a mon to deny sleep, B. Let your check take Bad Dreams repeatedly in hopes of waking up and chipping Darkrai. C. Switch into whatever that darkrai player might want for coverage, and hope for the best.
A 60% accurate move has put you in a tough call and if it doesnt land, it gives insight into what your thought process is in dealing with it, or set you up to be conditioned for later if it's a longer game.

Hypnosis is bad because it's inconsistent, bad dreams is extremely situational but not bad. You're able to force a decent amount of chip on any mon that's asleep, and in a faster paced metagame with a hazard issue, that small amount matters more.
 
This is demonstrably bullshit if you actually looked at a lot of older gens and the kind of shit that they let run around for a fucking long ass time in that specific gen's context. Like, you know fucking Gneensect in Gen 5 lasted over 3 months beofre finally getting banned? Or that deoxys Speed lasted oveer a whole fgucking year? Gen 6 Aegislash lasting over half a year before getting suspect tested and banned????
First ive been playing competitive since gen 5 and second I dont understand what is your point when bringing other gens broken stuff ¿?

We all talking about gen 9 meta, the most powercrept gen ever, and its future, so i dont see whats your point?

Like if you disagree with my Darkrai/Ape/Deoxys statements about considering testing them in OU why not just explain why you think they would be broken?

Some people just seem to talk and complain without giving any kind of real arguments.

Sometimes I wish there was some thread with a minimum ELO requirement to post.
 
Hypnosis is bad because it's inconsistent, bad dreams is extremely situational but not bad. You're able to force a decent amount of chip on any mon that's asleep, and in a faster paced metagame with a hazard issue, that small amount matters more.
Bad Dreams means you can punish Donbozo for resting. I am as anti darkrai as they come I think it's gonna be real dumb BUT Bad Dreams will be very funny to exploit with pivoting when you can actually get meaningful chip on a Donny D. on top of the damage you deal with actual attacks.
 
Bad Dreams means you can punish Donbozo for resting. I am as anti darkrai as they come I think it's gonna be real dumb BUT Bad Dreams will be very funny to exploit with pivoting when you can actually get meaningful chip on a Donny D. on top of the damage you deal with actual attacks.
haha i got 12.5% on the don, lol bozo.... oh wait oh wait sleep talk oh no oh no body press AAAAA
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 192-228 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
haha i got 12.5% on the don, lol bozo.... oh wait oh wait sleep talk oh no oh no body press AAAAA
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 192-228 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and yet when I use sleep talk I only roll rest

fucking hate this game

Unrelated
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 285-336 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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